The vast majority of Web3 projects we review seem to have or want to implement a project token.
Thing is, a lot don't put the research time into really understanding...
They're often playing a short term game when they should be looking at long term gains.
We spoke to Alex Fatuliaj, a tokenomics consultant and co-founder of Simplicity consultancy, to discover the common mistakes many projects make with their tokens.
If you're a project looking to implement a token, you'll earn some valuable things form this. If you're a Web3 user about to jump in with a project that has its own token, you'll know what to look for and avoid by watching this.
Find more of Alex through the below.
pete_boyle:
hey how you're doing so tatting today
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
to alex fatal from simplicity consultancy about toconomics because
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
as i feel like every project wants to include some sort of token and nobody real thinks about it and so alex is going to run us through
alex_fatuliaj:
yep
pete_boyle:
the good the bad of tokenmicmwhat think about so tell us a little bit about yourself
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
what you do and how you help people
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah of course very quickly very
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
brief run down so i've been in crypto since twenty seventeen trading investing
pete_boyle:
h
alex_fatuliaj:
researching educating of people
pete_boyle:
h
alex_fatuliaj:
and then at the start of
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
last year
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
in january so at the start of twenty twenty two for eight months worked out crypto v c and incubator and both mama founder we worked out as well and we realized that we don't really like the way the tokennomics are being done it's well it's mostly copying paste right no one really knows how to tokens are meant to be implemented correctly like what tokens actually are so we just did to use our economics degrees and basically
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
revolutionize the way that you know the space sees tokens and we launched simplicity consult
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
it's been coming on to the eight months now and yeah we just designed the token economics for crypto projects long story short my
pete_boyle:
and so you know when we finish this off
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
that i'll get some links and stuff a drop it down so if anybody needs help they can easily
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
find
alex_fatuliaj:
sure
pete_boyle:
you but always simplicity
alex_fatuliaj:
perfect
pete_boyle:
dotxwyright the website
alex_fatuliaj:
ah for the
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
webthewebsite at the moment is we're re branding into simplicity group because we have some of
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
ventures that were all putting under one roof basically but
pete_boyle:
go
alex_fatuliaj:
current website is simplicity you can alters dot net but
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
i think linked
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
in probably is the most like up dated things a search
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
simplicity
pete_boyle:
cool
alex_fatuliaj:
consultency
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
depends on your listening it might be already simplicity group on ye
pete_boyle:
okay i'll add links into all of the description all that society
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
to find you i guess we'll kick it off with like you know
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
for the basic like
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
absolute basics for the idiots like me like you
alex_fatuliaj:
yah
pete_boyle:
kick it off with what is the token basic so super simple terms if we could
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah yeah yeah the
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
way that we see tokens is board the line philosophical in a way but also very forgot the word but like
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
it's very realistic right fundamentally a token
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
is just a means to transact value right
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
just as vehicle and
pete_boyle:
yes
alex_fatuliaj:
what that value is is very different
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
depending on what project
pete_boyle:
ye
alex_fatuliaj:
you are for example in layer ones um
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
your token is used to basically state collateral so that then in case that you are a bad actor
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
your collateral get slashed right so the value there is basically security away right however if you're like a you know let's say you're a social media platform and you want to very ward users for selling their data right so you then transact the vale of the data with the token it rather than giving the users the dollars that the advertisers are paying you or whoever you give them the token instead now basically that's the general gist of it on fundamentally understanding what necessitates the creation of a token within your company basically whether it's an one like a governance token over it's this is that whatever it is that already will put you on the right path to creating a token that actually makes sense and that is something that a lot of people just miss the just create a token for staking governance and rewarding users
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
but i don't know who they're rewarding they don't know what the governance is going to be they don't know why they're staking is just it's all for gas you know as they say in that
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
one great film
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
by year
pete_boyle:
but i guess
alex_fatuliaj:
ye
pete_boyle:
that's the thing as it's like
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
and this is a problem see with so many of the brands in the space and everything they just sort of as you said early a copy and past it they see somebody else has got like
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
massive growth
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
by introducing a token
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
with favorable stake in rates and they're ike we'll do that because it gets a ton of
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
users but i mean we'll
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
get onto like sort of the utility of it
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
and all that later on but just kind of
alex_fatuliaj:
ah of course
pete_boyle:
wondering like so it's that you know the token is that transaction of
alex_fatuliaj:
so
pete_boyle:
value basically allows you to transact value
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
with the users but then how does that kind of work
alex_fatuliaj:
h
pete_boyle:
in terms of the brand
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
and the users on like a basic level
alex_fatuliaj:
yuhwitwhat do you answer
pete_boyle:
so you know it's a transaction value but then how would it
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
actually work in terms of that relationship between the brand and
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
the customer
alex_fatuliaj:
oh right yeah so it very much depends on what your project actually is or like what your company actually does but let's assume that it's literally just like a brand right as you said and they want to read the users the token is purely meant to replace whatever vehicle was already in place that your rewarding uses with and to put it into very simple example for example you am booking dot com or you go on you easy chet you know united remember whatsoever is you have these points on the platform
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
right and these are points that the users can collect that then they can exchange them for discount soever now instead of having points you can have a token that is also able to be sold on an exchange for dollars rather than only be exchanged on your platform for special benefits
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
so you already have something there and you're just tocanizing to add
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
you know liquidity or to add a way for us to sell it elsewhere right so that's one example
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
another example is for example if you're using well if you're trying to reward users who sell their data on your platform and obviously you're rewarding them with the revenue that you're making from the advertisers or whoever that is buying that data right so you can do that in dollars sure but i think there's like
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
very like i'm not a lawyer obviously but i think the regulations around that are pretty like a bit more tight and also
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
you know if i'm selling my data to you and the as the platform are giving me dollars like i'm going to have to put in my bank account dat and i don't know how easy it is for companies to send people money like i think it's just a little friction it's a lot easier to just have a token
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
there that is intrinsically backed by the money that you're making from the people by the data in rewarding the users with that token now balancing the supply and demand and some other features within that is a bit complicated but you know that's why you have us but also
pete_boyle:
yes
alex_fatuliaj:
you just you know mimic basically an existing
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
economy like a micro economy and then just dull it down to like a micro scale and you basically would understand how a token can be used build a relationship between the
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
the company and the user that makes sense
pete_boyle:
yeah so you were saying know early it's like like a miles
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
almost renaailine so you always fly
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
with airline you get the airline miles and then i guess what
alex_fatuliaj:
yep
pete_boyle:
would like
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
so then why would why would you choose like a token over one of those sort of established systems just because it's then easier to
alex_fatuliaj:
my
pete_boyle:
trade with somebody over a deck or whatever you know however
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
you
alex_fatuliaj:
so
pete_boyle:
want to actually share it with someone m yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah so from the perspective of the company
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
do you mean why would a company choose to implement a token
pete_boyle:
yeah yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
rather than the existing
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah so and this might be the is might be acclipable thing here but
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
basically because they just don't realize that that will like they okay i don't say this fundamentally there's no reason you can just use air mile however you might think that you want to improve the user experience so therefore you will allow the users to also sell that token elsewhere or maybe give that token more utility like some sort of revenue share but then you'll have to register as a security but none the less or you know utilize it in governance or maybe even staking i don't know what it is but like a token can be utilizing
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
in a lot
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
more ways than just the air miles sort of thing right it's a lot more versatile
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
so if you have other utilities
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
then you know that you can think of that will improve the user experience like the i or whatever the implement a token because it's better for the usher right for reason next said however generally speaking and this is the big problem and we're free that we're trying to solve at some city is that most projects launch a token purely so that they can fund raise and basically give staking rewards
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and market and bring users onto the platform right so they don't actually need a token we reject a lot
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
of companies that
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
have come to us and we like we want a token for this and then we tell them you don't want a token for this like this makes sense you only want a token to raise some money so that then you can likely exits count i'll just rug the project that is pretty much what a lot of companies are implementing projects a token so and after speaking with a couple i don't know if i can say the name but some very high up vices in the space
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
we found that
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
there is like a there's like a consensus of when you should implement a token if you are you know if you're just the company that wants to have a token to increase to benefit the user to increase the use experience and that is you have the company you have the product people come in to the platform to use the product everything is nice and good and then you implement a token once you have the use base and then that token is like a very smooth like it comes in and then people can use it but like you don't implement it from the start
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
you know implement from the get go just so you can find is or anything like that and this is an example is like read it right read it they have their like n f ts and they have like their tokens now but they already had the company there so they're not attracting new two to to their platform just so they can earn like a yield or anything like that they already have the users there and they just have the token to increase the the user experience so yeah just to answer your question basically there isn't really any need in the vast majority of cases to have a token is just people want to fund raised with it and then the v c s
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
most of them are just people we got very rich during the ball market and decided to register a company so they don't really understand
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
tokenziver so they'll just invest if they see like five utilities
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
even if the five utilities are staking staking two no staking three point no governance
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and staking they'll still invest because they see
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
five utilities right
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
so that's that's basically where the crupture spaces are right now
pete_boyle:
yeah because that's that's one of the things i see with a lot of them and it's like
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
you know you've got the these brands like you said the kind of they launch they don't launch the business they launch a token that the business is sort of attached to it
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
makes sense and the whole idea is just
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
we're going to have this token and then later on
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
we're going to do like this kind of stuff but really it's just the token that they're launching
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
they haven't got like a business plan or anything like
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
that and so you know those ones than
alex_fatuliaj:
exactly
pete_boyle:
my from what i've seen they don't last long because there's no there's no value the business itself is just
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
as soon as the value of the token
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
starts to dip that was the entire
alex_fatuliaj:
yes
pete_boyle:
value that's gone you know so i
alex_fatuliaj:
exactly
pete_boyle:
just
alex_fatuliaj:
exactly
pete_boyle:
is there and you said like you know you've got i read it as a good example you know they've got to use base and then they introduce n f t tokens at sort
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
of digital asset is there there sort of like that point that you look for you're consulting clients like do they have to have hit a certain level of scale or is there something that somebody should
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
consider when trying to influence like when is that right time to start thinking about it
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah so just to touch on a very quickly a project
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
or a company can launch a token like at the same time as they launch the product
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
however we always say and we try to work with clients already have some sort of proven history like they already have a hundred users
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
in the beta test right aware but they have some numbers that they can go with because if you have nothing and then you're saying oh we're going to launch a product and then it will attract a million users that's nice it's not going to happen though like fundamentally so then so to answer a question we in fact can you reiterate your question all more
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
time just so on point
pete_boyle:
just like what's what's that sort of point where because now say you've got to have some use so is there
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
like a i know thee it
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
depends on the business there's no magic number of like oh you've got
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
to have x number uses but is there a point of certain level
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah yeah
pete_boyle:
of scale or something or attraction that somebody should be geting it
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
and thinking right now maybe s the right time
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
for me to consider this
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah yeah i guess the term for that that we that we are sort of using with these high level vices is like critical mass now again as you said exactly
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
very depends on the business where that point is like for example for lay one at that point can be literally even with like one user because you lay one like you need a token from the very beginning you can't have a product without the token right however if you're like a company then it's just sort of how do i say this like it can happen whenever right but it's when it just feels right it's like when me you're like when they
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
use a growth starts to plate a little bit maybe when it starts to slow down maybe when you have already captured one market
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
that you're aiming for before you expand to other markets like it just depends but fundamentally also so touching on what in the previous point is you can launch a token beforehand like before you've reached this sort of critical mass right but you just need to insure that you're balance the supply and the demand and that's why we want to
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
work with clients at to have some sort of like use base even in the batetistowever because we can then extrapolate the demand from that and therefore balance the supply of the tokens like investing schedules of the different applications to different ranches and so on with that expected demand right so as long as you can balance the two and all that does is it just keeps the pr s constant right so as the supply is increasing
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
the demand is also increasing don't
pete_boyle:
m yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
know which way it's going to be and then you know your equilibrium
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
price is kept the same so
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
as long as you can do that like you can it's a token before you reached the sort of critical mass or maybe even from the get go if you have some sort of already some sort of users or like some experience or maybe you're just re branding a company i don't know right but generally speak it's better to launch a token in the future stages because one you confirm that you have a product or service that people actually want to use you're not just as you said it's not just a token of the token is the whole value of the business but you actually have something there so you confirm that you have all the uses and then you're like cool well you're looking at
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
our data a lot of people they like to leave comments on each other's posts but they don't actually care about voting for how to improve you know the company right so therefore if we were to launch a token ere go nor governance we're going to focus on a user to use a sort of medium of exchange so it also gives you that
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
ability to
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
launch a token with the right utilities i actually improved the use experience
pete_boyle:
yeah i guess from the sound of it it's more like
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
it might
alex_fatuliaj:
ah
pete_boyle:
be a
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
good time to consider implement a token when you've got some level of predictability on
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
growth because otherwise balancing that
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
supply and demand is going to be a right pain in the ass like how you're going to if you don't know how he now uses you're attracting or how long lifetime
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
value or you your
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
turn rate or anything like that is
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
then you risk
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
introducing it and it's just going to clap
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
on your right
alex_fatuliaj:
precisely precisely
pete_boyle:
got it so then late what would be
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
a good and a bad use for token i mean you've talked about
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
something like just curious like what the worst token uses that you've seen yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah so we one of the things that we do a simplicity consult is we
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
released quite not quite a lot like we have about maybe like ten or so one pages that explain
pete_boyle:
m oh
alex_fatuliaj:
like tokens and how we view them so i have one up on screen i can share it as well after but the way that like there isn't necessarily a
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
bad token utility right is just how it's implemented and also can be bad for some businesses that can be good for others right but the way that we look at it like the core of it is we split token utilities into primary and secondary utilities and again this isn't really something that and personally anywhere done before and a primary utility is something that actually necessitates the creation of the token for example concensus
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
mechanism that proof of stake thing a medium of exchange whereby you want to use dollars and you also don't want to use it coin
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
because you know it coin can be you know fifty one percent attack you want to have your own currency cool fine it can be used as a debt instrument can be used with like a bit version of a security so like revenue sharing and this and that and that is used for physical and monetary policy control and last part lest governance as well governance like a joke about it argue a good utility if it's implemented correctly so these six things are something that we've identified
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
to be necessitate so to necessitate the creation of a token and you be they're all good utilities but again like you're not going to need a like for examlyou're not going to need to have your token be a security
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
token with like revenue sharing if
pete_boyle:
my
alex_fatuliaj:
you are using it as a the like like a layer one proof of stake token right like it all depends on your business and then you have the secondary utilities like staking gate keeping and rewards right this a few others but these are the main free and the reason these are secondaries because you don't need to create a token just so you can reward users you don't need to create a token just so you can gate keep some arts of your platform from users who don't have your token like you don't need the token that you can use other things you can use like a log in account you can just charge people like when it comes to the reward you don't need to reward users like you can just have a good product that people are using like if you're rewarding users for just simply using your product your product is probably quite bad fundamentally speaking
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
layman's terms obviously it makes sense in
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
some cases by a dozen in others so like i guess to answer the question is it very much depends as long as your token is used to improve the user experience and again do i benefit by extension also your company then it's a fine utility but if it's used for purely like the secondary
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
utilities that don't actually need the token or for the sake well like fund raising is not going to be a good token so i hope that sort of
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
answers it
pete_boyle:
but yes i'm you know thinking on this is i'm going to show how skeptical it can be i guess
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
when a company
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
is like introducing a token they've got to try and plan
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
for the worst potential people because like you were saying if you're
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
incentivising people to use your project
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
you're just simply rode just for usage
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
imagine that a lot of people are going to come and just use it just
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
to try and farm
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
as much of the token as possible
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
before they can then dump it somewhere
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
and i guess just
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
got to try and be very skeptical on
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
the future potential
alex_fatuliaj:
ah
pete_boyle:
bad actors that token might attract
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah of course but also like we this is exactly the topic that we've released on our most recent one page about staking it you need to figure out who you're actually rewarding right if you are
pete_boyle:
yes
alex_fatuliaj:
for example right if your utility is governance
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and then what you do is you charge fees on people using your platform over here you know like a one percent fetubepercent say half of that is going to go back to rewards to people who unless they stake to govern the plat the platform and then there you know their proposal gets implemented to everyone that's staked and governed for that proposal and in this all done well for the platform they get rewarded that's a very nice and fine system right you're rewarding users who are being helpful to your platform and you're just implementing a little tax on everyone else generally speaking right
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
that's fine however if you're literally like if you just have a staking thing where i can buy the token i can come on and i get twenty per cent a p for just staking and get more of your token all that means as i'm going to keep can say can staking until i see cause obviously what it does is it locks up the liquidity right because you ave less supply the price will keep going up as soon as i see the price go like just a little little slow down that's it i'm out right i
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
un stake and i cash out and so will every single other steak
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
because they were only there as you said to take the token and cash it out they don't care about your product right
pete_boyle:
ye
alex_fatuliaj:
and this is also something that kills the majority of projects because that is literally like they have this user acquisition strategy and it's fine but again you need to make sure there's balanced and you need to make sure that you're attracting the right people because otherwise you just going
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
to attract grant fundamentally
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
unless i remember think it was last year sometime i remember twitter
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
was blowing up and like
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
every ton of people that was following were getting involved in
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
i can't remember the name of the project but basically it was like you end up by eight grand
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
for a block and then you could stake
alex_fatuliaj:
yah
pete_boyle:
that and then you know you get more and more and stuff
alex_fatuliaj:
yah
pete_boyle:
like this and people
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
are like oh yeah you know i've got
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
you know seven blocks now and they're providing me with this much profit every month and i was looking as like i don't understand how this works
alex_fatuliaj:
yep
pete_boyle:
but eventually
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
as she said those things where you know you just stake some
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
money and you get massive returns eventually they all just seem to run out of steam and just just die death
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
but wondering to like
alex_fatuliaj:
i've learned
pete_boyle:
if
alex_fatuliaj:
the hard way
pete_boyle:
there's somebody who i think a lot of us have
alex_fatuliaj:
not hard way
pete_boyle:
but as like a user
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
if you're going into looking at these projects like a lot of people won't have the knowledge that you do to go and like fully assess the toconomics like a key red flag that you should look for as a user to be like
alex_fatuliaj:
ye
pete_boyle:
now this is not this is not something that i want to put my money in
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah so the easiest thing that i would say as a very quick and easy red flag to spot
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
is how much because the economics tables so it's like ten per cent of the
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
team tepcettovcs so to governance wherever those are generally speaking public so if you see a project with like the vast majority of the tokens or even just a simple majority of the tokens going
pete_boyle:
yes
alex_fatuliaj:
to the team on investors general speaking anything over like twenty per cent for each is a bit too much again it depends
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
if the team is huge that's that's more understandable if the vesting schedules are very long understandable but roughly speaking right if there's a lot of allication to those two categories it's a little bit it's quite a red flag when it comes to
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
just thinking about how who are you who's the protocol having creating the token
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
for is it for the benefit of
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
v c s and two fund rays and then to cash out as the team or is it to reward the users of whatever it so that's the first thing like a very quick sort of an easy thing to spot but then another thing is i suppose a more like just a more deeper understanding of what the project
pete_boyle:
yah
alex_fatuliaj:
actually is and then seeing cool can they use
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
dollars to do this can they use traditional
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
web to things like air miles to do this can they use i don't know n f t to do this
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
if they can use other things to achieve what they're saying the token tility is going to be then is not going to be a great token and eventually it will all come crashing down roughly speaking right because the token again will have no like i'll have intrinsic value but
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
it's just you just have to question
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
whether the team actually
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
knows what they're doing with the token because if they if they
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
can implement air miles but so they're implementing a token and obviously taking given twenty percent of ces then like esveiually just all a massive conflict of interest and if you can spot a company that has a token for a good reason i know i know that's a bit hard but like yeah like you can have a got feeling of ever the token is going to be used to benefit me as a user or to benefit
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
the company or the investors
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
i guess that's like a more overall way of looking at it
pete_boyle:
i think that's right as well because you know you look at some of them and good feeling is like i don't understand why doing this and if it doesn't
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
make sense
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
from
alex_fatuliaj:
those
pete_boyle:
you know
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
yeah even if it's a personal thing why would you get involved in something that you don't understand or don't really believe in
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
because
alex_fatuliaj:
precisely
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
precisely my
pete_boyle:
but then i guess for the project were introducing these like you said i think the the allures there for
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
like these projects because they see and you're saying like i remember all through twenty twenty one twenty twenty two you see these projects and you now spin up on a monday and by friday they have a hundred thousand users or something because they had these ridiculous tokens or these ridiculous sort of staking like plans where you would do a litle bit
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
and you get like you know a huge return just is the only thing that that's never going to work but how does a project
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
balance
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
the short time growth that a lot of them wants with the long term benefits
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
that are actually going to keep
alex_fatuliaj:
um
pete_boyle:
the value in that token is there anything
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
now is it just really
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
just played the long game i hope you know in the short term it
alex_fatuliaj:
generally
pete_boyle:
sorts
alex_fatuliaj:
speaking
pete_boyle:
itself out
alex_fatuliaj:
is
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
generally speaking just played the long game those have businesses that survive fundamentally projects in webthree are just businesses
pete_boyle:
m yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and his is somthing
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
that notices well a little bit of a tangent but like just and we freed
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
called projects there's still a business but for some reason
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
a lot of people just think oh this is just this magical thing of this magical
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
money and it doesn't
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
need to have revenues costs none of that it will just work out because we have a token it doesn't work like that and it all comes crashing down eventually but i bring you back from the tangent so if the majority of your users
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
that you're attracting to the platform are being attracted by like high apis or whatever like i do is where all of you use coming from for you to
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
then be able to keep those users and to actually you know continue the sustainable business you need to convert those users convert stakes into being actually users of your platform and then too you need to insure that you limit how much the people who aren't being converted can damage your protocol so on the former
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
a bit difficult to do because again you're just attracting people who are coming for the
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
high a p s on um actually benefiting your platform
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
realistically in a lot of ways other than you know holding liquidity and the pumping the price of your token which again is fine but you need to have a plan in place on how you're going to convert that into sul uses right and one way of doing that is by attracting people that you would think would be users from the get go right and then just offering them this high a p for example if you're a gaming project you reach out to don't know gaming influences or something like that and then you attract the games that will already be interested in your product but you just entice them with the high a p but you keep them with the product that you know they'll probably like a lot right so you need to basically figure that out how you're goin to convert them and then the second thing is the people that don't convert you implement things at locked staking like un staking fees like for example lock staking you can lock the staking for thirty days and then
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
if you want to unlock it like unlocks ten per cent of your stake every every week it omtilitaand he that will already reduce the supply not goin to get like a sudden supply shock right to so for example you have unstaking fees like you can implement a feature whereby uses can come
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
on the stake your token and then they earn more of your token or whatever in which ever which way either taxes or it's being minted or it's being brought back and then re distributed wherever it is
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
and then they have a choice either they can like the tokens are they're locked from being taken out and on to an exchange but they're unlocked within the protocol if that makes sense so then if you're a game then cool i'm earning all these tokens and i can spend them in the game i just can't cash them out without paying
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
like twenty percent tax or something like that something like that will also
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
reduce like
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
how much of the supply can be you know say this basically
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
how strong the
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
supply shock will be once people actually you try to catch out
pete_boyle:
oh oh
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
i guess is
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
that fundamentally and also it's just again just balancing the supply and demand like if your utilities are pretty bad like if no one actually needs to buy your token like for example exchanges i never have the coin token because i know it saves me like fifty percent of the fees but the fees are already like one percent i don't really i don't
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
know whatever but like i don't care i'm not going to buy the qucointoken and hold it right for that reason maybe
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
because my account isn't big enough i'll give you that if your account is like you know a million s definitely worth while but
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
not for me
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
right so like if that's
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
for example your own utility then now a lot of people are going to buy your token it generally speaking in layman's terms as an example so if you track people of this high a p you're not really going to get people demanding the token outside of that right so that's that's something else to consider you have like good utilities for the token so that then as your users grow but like not just because actually uses to people that are using your platform game where is
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
they would need to buy the token or they would want strongly to buy the token for reasons x one said and therefore like as people are on king and like you're dialing down the whole staking user acquisition strategy you're dialing it down or you're reducing the a p or just stopping in or wherever it is like that cell pressure is being taken on by the user growth that you're getting and all these uses demanding your token again just balancing the supply and demand on if you already
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
have like some
pete_boyle:
my
alex_fatuliaj:
like users on your platform and you can see how much you've grown like you can see let's say marketing strategy and marketing ratybyielded us two hundred percent of the users so therefore do that again and then we'll get like another two hundred percent something like that
pete_boyle:
ye
alex_fatuliaj:
you can like you can work out and you can do some rough mats about how much demand you're going to get versus how much cell pressure you're goin to get and then just lance the two out like you maybe
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
you know you've reduced the a p is slow or
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
maybe you can reduce it faster because you have some great strategy in your back pocket that will just attract a million users overnight like some ada it's hopefully the answers
pete_boyle:
yeah it sounds like it would be like
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
that sounds like it would be a real pain in the ass try and get done if you've got people
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
who have come in because you've got these
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
ridiculously high pies to try and convert them then that i could
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
be a real nightmare because i mean those
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
those people they're just going to be going from project to project
alex_fatuliaj:
hm
pete_boyle:
that's got high a p as soon as they can benefit off it
alex_fatuliaj:
yep
pete_boyle:
they're gone they're on to the neck think
alex_fatuliaj:
exactly
pete_boyle:
so i guess then if you know you take everything
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
that you said together agues
alex_fatuliaj:
yes
pete_boyle:
projects
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
maybe who
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
might be considering some sort of token
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
wait until they have some
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
form of predictable growth that they can better judge how things will work in the long
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
term have that long term goal and they're focus really on sort of a utility of it that
alex_fatuliaj:
ah
pete_boyle:
is not something they could do with existing solutions
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah just just a touch in that it like a token can just be a replacement for existing things
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
i guess i didn't really clarify that earlier in the episode like the way that i see and this is sort of a philosophical side of things
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
you know we had gold one back in the day where it was just one currency basically for the whole world where it was just gold
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
again in very laments terms then that got sort of split
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
up into each country having their own medium of exchange
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
their own currency like feet again very lames terms now we can take that step further right and go into a world like there is a worldarguably somewhere out there
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
where each company each community everyone has their own currency and it's just all fore across the whole world right that isn't really that
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
unfeasible if you have like good changes with like a lot of liquidity or this or that like it's not like it's possible right given the right tech so with that in mind if you just want to have a token as a medium of exchange knowing full well
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
that you can just use dollars or you can use bitpoint but you want to separate yourself from
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
potential risks of those things going down or like hyper inflating whatever it is um
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
then it's fine to implement a token but it's just like you need to explain that in a way where it's not going to come across as if you're just you know having a token to fund race again like like it does make sense to have a token to just decentralize yourself like you know from all these other things which might go down so yeah that's something to keep in mind if a project is
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
saying that they have a token and like there are the tokens doing things which can already be done with like web to things like that there is a
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
reason it's still existing
pete_boyle:
yeah it's more like getting people more invested in the company i guess as in
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
not financially invested but sort of emotionally invested because they hold
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
some form of a stake in the company
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
whether that is ownership or
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
governance or whatever cool
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
and then i guess anybody who's considering doing a token is anything they
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
can do to the future because like the whole idea
alex_fatuliaj:
yes
pete_boyle:
around tokens of securities is an issue for a lot of people and i think you know i got some comments from
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
somebody yesterday i was trying to about this and they were just like oh yeah but
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
the their view was and they're not they're not a believer in web three their view was
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
that the u s government is going to band bit coin
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
and all of this and you know
alex_fatuliaj:
you call
pete_boyle:
paying the as i think really what they're
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
talking about is actually talking about tokens of securities just wondering what
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
rands could do to kind of
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
help prepare themselves for that
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah well fundamentally it
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
is good for the government to get involved and to prevent users from like people from losing money and the reason where like the reason why securities even came about is from american to guy called how i can't remember the story exactly but that's where the howe test comes
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
from which i'll explain the second but basically the guy it was something to do i like an orange orchard
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
or something but like you couldn't like sell parts of the farm so he sold like futures contracts something along those lines i can't remember but basiallyou just scanned a lot of people fundamentally so what the
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
governetdecided to do is then implement the how test to determine whether something like an asset is a security or not and the hay test is basically four points
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
but it's all like sort of one sentence and i'm going to get it out so don't butch to
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
give you one second but
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
i used to like just roll
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
off the tongue but i haven't
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
haven't said it to you so it's
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
if an asset passes all four things like to all four things it's a yes then it's a security so it's
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
an investment of money in a common enterprise with the expectation of profit to be derived from the effort others so
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
the first three pretty much everything falls under is is the fourth
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
thing that really turned
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
something into security versus just an asset right on what that means is for example if like revenue sharing
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
it if you are making fifteen percent revenue share if you hold this token that revenue share
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
is coming from the company the third party in this case doing very well earning a lot of revenue so it's their effort that is then being reflected in the profit for the asset right so that would be a security however if your token is purely used as a medium of exchange it's not meant to go up in value it can if there's a lot more demand and supply and that's fine but that's not due to the it's of others that is like it's written in the code that's just how it is right then it's not going to be a security right like another example is if you implement a burn mechanism and this is something that we got from our lawyer who's
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
again don't know if i can reveal who it is but from a lawyer working very closely with security staff what he said is for example and this can change
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
but like actually said just before that the hitestis in america
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
in the u k it's very similar but it's all so it's like it's very case case so you don't really have like a very flow test but
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
generally speaking is the exact same thing that determines whether something is the security or not and is roughly
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
speaking the same in like europe and other places around the world right circling
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
what the guy
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
told us is if you know you have a burn mechanism for
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
example but mechanisms are there to reduce supply and therefore increase the you know the price of the token right by themselves a bit of a pointless thing to do because all
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
that means is that you're just artificially
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
going to be increasing the price right so it's not really that's actally another
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
little red flag they just have a burn
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
for no real reason it's not
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
just is that you miscalculated your token price right and you just
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
wanted to go up in value rather than to intrinsically provide value to the users anyways if you state like in the code in your white paper everything you're gonna have a two percent burn on all transactions it's fine that's not going to make it a security because like it's written
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
it's not going to be derived from the efforts of others it's already it's in the code right that's just how it is however if you have like an ad hock burn for instance you will burn like the
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
team will decide how much they can burn based on what x said then that could make it secure well that will make it security again it can change generally speaking right now that's the case
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
because now it's like the team's efforts
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
that will then affect the price right so in order to future prove your token from being like under the regulators eyes once those guys have everything
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
figured out and actually start to you now look closely at crypt because at the moment theyre not really doing anything they're just allowing everyone to do where they want roughly speaking unless you're very very big like ripple or whatever else
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
everyone can do what they want at the moment right but it will change very very quickly i'm expecting like within five years we're going to start to see some real changes and that's like my personal maximum right but to avoid
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
falling under like falling under the hammer right of being a security just don't
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
have an expectation of profit to be
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
derived from the efforts of like the third party right
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
fundamentally just as simple as that and this is the difference you have utility tokens
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and you have security tokens security tokens generally are meant to go up in value or they're meant to provide like profit back to whoever owns them utility tokens they're just there for you
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
they're not meant to go up in value they're not meant to give the user any profit and revenue they're just
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
there like a medium of exchange or maybe
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
for governance or maybe for
pete_boyle:
my
alex_fatuliaj:
staking like as collateral or maybe for like that ever it is
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
but it's just it's a utility and those tokens are fine
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
at the moment that's the general gist of how it's going
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
yeah so
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
from
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
some of it it's it's
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
i guess when you create the token to right into the contract how everything is going to work and then
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
not take any
alex_fatuliaj:
oh
pete_boyle:
decisions on burn mechanisms or how the value of the token is going to change later down the line that's one
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
way to kind of
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
not future briefly self but to give yourself
alex_fatuliaj:
generally speaking yeah
pete_boyle:
yeah yeah okay cool so yeah there's you know nothing else i thought would really want to go over to i don't know i you've got anything that you want to add
alex_fatuliaj:
to be honest not not not necessarily i guess what i do is i'll just reiterate everything that i said in to anyone who's listening
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and like involved in crypt or isn't a full time crypto and is that a token is just a vehicle to transact value without value can be monetary value it can be like the feeling of being part of something it can be collateral
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
it can be voted it can be can be wherever it is
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
but it's just value and you use a token to transact that value because other
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
methods are over too in the last stick or they're just not good enough or they can be attacked or hacked or they're controlled by the u s government rather than by the team who's creating the token
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
so that's the main thing and when
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
it comes to you working out whether
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
a token is good or not
pete_boyle:
m
alex_fatuliaj:
just look at wherever it makes sense generally speaking if you're looking at project and it doesn't make sense or like you're thinking of how are they going to do that and they're not really explaining it is because they don't know and they're just lying generally speaking night in itpesode at the time right so
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
avoid those projects in general
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
and then if you're a project and you want to implement
pete_boyle:
oh
alex_fatuliaj:
you know utilities or staking or this or that just make sure that
pete_boyle:
ye
alex_fatuliaj:
you have an understanding of how much use you're going to get versus how much of the token you're going to supply and then what the
pete_boyle:
okay
alex_fatuliaj:
users would want to do with your token and then implement those utilities
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
to improve the user experience and avoid giving more than like ten to fifteen per cent to v c s because that's just sell so that doesn't need to be there arguably
pete_boyle:
yeah
alex_fatuliaj:
and just focus on the user basically so yeah i guess that's sort of a very nice way of summarising everything yeah
pete_boyle:
yeah cool and then we'll pop all other links and everything where people can find you if they at that
alex_fatuliaj:
m
pete_boyle:
point where implement
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
the token makes sense or they want to come chat but yeah i guess that's
alex_fatuliaj:
yep
pete_boyle:
it for me so you know thanks in
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah absolute pleasure i'm thanking for having me on and
pete_boyle:
no no
alex_fatuliaj:
yeah
pete_boyle:
worries
alex_fatuliaj:
open to have any chats with anyone just t ms or
pete_boyle:
ah
alex_fatuliaj:
wherever it may be
pete_boyle:
perfect all right cheers alex
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